Music & Peacebuilding

PART 1

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HicksEpisode1 - 12-14-23 5.45 AM

Thu, Dec 14, 2023 5:53AM • 54:11

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

dignity, connection, hicks, humility, conflict, belonging, awe, human, writes, sense, work, dialogue, vulnerability, word, treated, humanity, peacebuilding, ubuntu, experience, archbishop desmond tutu

SPEAKERS

Donna Hicks, Nelson Mandela, Kevin Shorner-Johnson

 

Donna Hicks  00:00

If we're going to survive as a species we have to get take that last step. And I believe that dignity can take us there. I use the word yearning to describe the universality that we all yearn to be treated with dignity. It's a feeling and it's a spiritually deeply spiritual yearning, to be seen, to be heard, to be recognized to be treated fairly to be apologized to if someone mistreats treats, us that's what we all want from relationships. And I think a knowledge of dignity can take us there.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  00:34

You are listening to season four of the music and peacebuilding podcast, a podcast season focused on multifaceted textures of belonging. Our podcast explores intersections of peacebuilding, sacredness, community, creativity and imagination through research and story.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  00:54

Dr. Donna Hicks is an associate at the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs at Harvard University. She was deputy director of the program on international conflict analysis and resolution. Dr. Hicks worked extensively on the Israeli Palestinian conflict and founded and co-directed a 10 year project in Sri Lanka. She has also worked on conflicts in Northern Ireland and Colombia, and conducted US Cuba dialogues, Dr. Hicks worked with Archbishop Desmond Tutu on a BBC program, Facing the truth. This three episode program facilitated encounters between victims and perpetrators of the Northern Irish conflict.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  01:40

Dr. Hicks teaches conducts domestic and international trainings and seminars and consults to corporations, schools, churches and nongovernmental organizations. She is the author of the book, dignity, its essential role in resolving conflict, published in 2011, and republished as a 10th anniversary edition in 2021 by Yale University Press. Her second book, leading with dignity, how to create a culture that brings out the best in people, was published in 2018 by Yale University Press.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  02:17

This is the first in a two part series on dignity, belonging, awe, humility, kindness, and identity. In this episode, we discuss the magic of dignity language, a South African heritage of Ubuntu, and pathways of self expansion, through humility, vulnerability, and awe.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  02:44

The word dignity is magical, because it seems to open doors to dialogue when other words like maybe grievance or harm, might closed doors, or create defensive postures. And so as I wanted to know about what you've learned about the magic of the dignity frame, to open doors, when other words don't?

 

Donna Hicks  03:02

Well, that's quite a long story, too. But I'll give you the highlights. Because all those years that I was sitting at the negotiating tables, you know, trying to bring these parties together for dialogue. And these were intractable conflicts. These weren't just 30 Day conflicts, these were some of them, Israel Palestine, for example, they were centuries old. And so my colleagues and I, we were always struggling with what we really need to get to the human dimension of these conflicts, because every, the issues that they were arguing about were all sort of political issues, objective political issues, that you could really, you know, sort of talk about and discuss. But every single time that we convened a group, there would always be this kind of explosive moment in the dialogues where the parties were just like, we regressed to, to an earlier point in the discussion because something happened inside somebody. And it would be, I used to call them emotional tsunamis would fill the room. But there were no words to that emotional tsunami, they were still arguing about the politics, whatever it was they were discussing. And so I realized, oh, my gosh, well, we've got to figure out what was the trigger for that explosion. And so one day I said to my colleague, I'm going to ask them what, just tell me what happened there when you just got so upset, and you were so emotional that so I said that to them once and they said, emotions, this isn't about emotions. This is about justice. This is about you know, so on and on. And so wrong word. Do not let me just warn anybody who's no, don't use the word emotions when you're talking to people about who are in intractable conflicts. So then I thought all right, how about trauma? How about because underneath that there had to be some kind of a wound, you know. And so I went back to Harvard, I remember saying, let's convene a group of people who know about trauma let's, and for a whole year, I convened a trauma group. And I was convinced that was the way to go to talk about their underlying traumas. Alright, so I went to this one next time, I think I was in Sri Lanka. And I remember seeing that same explosion, because it happened everywhere we went. And I said, Excuse me, but you know, I just have a feeling that the, you know, the emotional reaction that you just had, or the trauma or the I didn't say trauma at that point, I said, the reaction that you just had, is, you know, deeply embedded in the trauma that you have endured and lived through. And they said, trauma. No, this isn't about trauma. This is about justice. This is about oh, boy, okay, two times, I messed up, I got the wrong words, even though I thought about them so deeply. And then one day, it was almost like, Okay, what's going on here, and I remember sitting, I didn't even I wasn't even at a table negotiate. I was just like, taking a walk one day. And I thought, I know what this is about. If I were to put words to it, it would sound something like, if they were to say, How dare you treat us this way? You know, can't you see we're human beings, can't you see, we're suffering, and you're doing nothing about it. And so once I got that, I said, Ah, this is about their dignity. This is about not even being treated as like a human being. And, you know, something settled inside me after that epiphany, you know, that breakthrough? And it was almost like, Okay, thank you. Thank you for that insight.

 

Donna Hicks  06:54

And so I, I was called to do another dialogue. I was in Latin America this time, or South America. And I, I said, Look, you know, I have a feeling that one of the reasons why this so hard to, you know, to discuss this conflict, and to come to some agreement about resolving it. I said, some, the problem is, there's a human dimension here to this conflict. And I think that so much of what's happening underneath the table, is that your dignity is being violated, you're being treated as less than you're being treated like, you're not even a human being like you don't even matter. I said, Is there any way we could have a discussion about the ways in which you feel your dignity has been assaulted by this conflict? Kevin, was like talking about the doors swinging open. You know, those other two words, shut the doors. But this one, I mentioned this word dignity, and it is magic. They sat up straighter, they all raise their hand, because I asked for a show of hands, every single one of them. And they would say to me, and yeah, you know, this isn't just about my dignity, but it's about my ancestors dignity that I'm bringing into this conversation. And I'm glad you brought that up. So anyway, we spent the two days instead of talking about, you know, the usual politics and this and that we just spent two days talking about dignity. And by the end, you know, there was a there was a general in the audience and the audience in the at the table. And he said, at the end, he came up to me, and he said, Donna, you know, you really did help us restore this relationship, and thank you with your dignity approach. At the same time, I think even more important than that, I think you saved my marriage. So Kevin, at that juncture, I realized this isn't just about international conflict gone awry . This isn't just about intractable issues between warring parties. This is about all of us. There isn't any person on the planet who I've ever met, who said, No, don't treat me well. I don't care. You know, you can be mean and nasty to me. I know. We all want that. It's like a universal human yearning. And, and I think of it as our highest common denominator, because it is the one place that we can all agree that yes, our dignity is important to us. And if we can get everybody to try to get down that path and say, Well, how do we do this, then? How do we end this conflict by helping restore our dignity and make sure that it's intact moving forward?

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  09:41

I experienced if I reflect back to you that it takes a very limited timescale in the conversation helps you enlarge the timescale. And it also where so many words just talk about what was wrong. It opens the door to talking about repair, as well. And I think it's really powerful in that way?

 

Donna Hicks  10:01

Yeah, well, you know that in what I want to emphasize, and I always say this when I give a talk or interview is that there's enormous ignorance surrounding this issue of dignity. You know, most people haven't really even thought about it. They hear the word and then they say to me, oh, yeah, that's really nice. That's nice work. Thank you. That's great. But then I asked them to elaborate, what does it look like in your world? You know, tell me stories. And they're like, Oh, well, I think we just all, I don't know. And they stopped, they don't have a working definition. They don't have any sense of what it looks like in their everyday lives. And not because they're not, you know, smart, or educated or anything, because these are really powerful people that I work with. And I have to admit, I didn't understand it, until I started researching it myself. And so I think our challenge here is that the ignorance surrounding it is, is greater than the consciousness that we have. And I think it's nothing less than, you know, trying to evolve our human consciousness to a point where we actually do see the shared humanity that we all are yearning for the same thing, we want to be treated well, we want to belong, we want to be in a environment where we feel seen, we feel heard, we feel listened to, we want to feel connected. So you know, the neuroscientists tell us that, you know, we have this profound inner workings of our brain where we do thrive on connection. So that's what we want. It's universal, yet. The ignorance surrounding it is it's tragic, really.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  11:47

The Ubuntu concept flourished within the theology and personhood of Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Desmond Tutu writes, Ubuntu is the essence of being human. It speaks of how my humanity is caught up and bound up inextricably with yours. It says, not as Descartes did "I think, therefore, I am," but rather, "I am because I belong." The completely self sufficient human being is subhuman. I can be me only if you are fully you. I am because we are for we are made for togetherness for family. We are made for complementarity. We are created for a delicate network of relationships, of interdependence with our fellow human beings, with the rest of creation.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  12:43

As a person in the humanities, I'm really, I'm fascinated by the ways in which cultures and worldviews color a word. And so I wanted to ask about South African heritage, because you spend time with with Archbishop Desmond Tutu, I think that you're very inspired by Nelson Mandela. I also hear you talking about the South African concept of Ubuntu. So tell me about how that context of apartheid, inform your understandings of dignity? Well,

 

Donna Hicks  13:09

I've got a great story about that. So as you pointed out, I worked with Desmond Tutu, and known him for about a decade, you know, before he died. And we work together in Northern Ireland on a project where we were bringing together victims and perpetrators of that conflict in Northern Ireland, and I was co facilitating those encounters with him. And when we first met, that was when i very i met him for the first time and it was like, Oh, my God, I was just so starstruck. Can you imagine meeting Desmond Tutu, it was like one of my heroes of all time. And so he sit down, let's go have a cup of coffee. I want to hear more about how you arrived at this dignity work. And I just want to hear about your journey with this. And I said, Sure. And I told them that I've been working with all these conflicts on all these conflicts with groups who were willing to, you know, fight with each other in order to restore their dignity. And I said, they would always say to me, yeah, we are fighting for our dignity, the other side has stripped us of our dignity, and we want it back. And Tutu said to me, "what did you say" in this kind of like, Oh, my God, he's, he's shaming me. What did I say? He said, What did you say? And I said, yeah, they said, they stripped had their dignity stripped, and they're fighting to try to restore that. And he said, Look, I don't ever want to hear you say that again. I said, What what happened? And he said, nobody has the power to strip you of your dignity, or anybody's dignity. And he said, How do you think we got through apartheid are black South Africans and All those years of being humiliated and treated as less than how do you think we could stand up straight. And he said, The only reason we got through that was because we knew that our dignity was in our hands and our hands only, and nobody could strip us of our dignity. That was the one thing that we hung on to, that got us through. And he said to me, and, you know, read Nelson Mandela's book when you go home, because he too felt the same way. You know, he went into prison for 27 years. And he figured out that one of the things that the prison guards were trying to do was to strip them up their dignity. And he, you know, he's he writes that, and, oh, I was so relieved, because I knew that nobody was gonna win that battle over my dignity, because I'm not willing to let it go for anything for any man, any institution. So it was fundamental to the black South African reality, that even though they were, you know, as I said, humiliated and treated so badly for so long, and structurally, obviously, with the apartheid regime, and not only individually, but just structurally. And so I thought, Oh, wow, that is amazing that they feel that nobody can take their dignity away from them. And I said, but there's so many people that I encountered who are suffering, thinking that they have had their dignity stripped from them. And so the way that informed my work, Kevin, was it, it made me realize that the first order of business whenever I work with people, is to be sure that they have that truth, securely embedded inside their soul, that nobody can take away their dignity, because Tutu always said, it's not that it can't be injured, it can be injured, it can be traumatized, assaulted. But at the end of the day, what you need is healing, you don't need a restoration of your dignity, because it's already there, you need to heal those wounds, that's very different from saying it was stripped from me. So that is the first thing I do. And I promised him, I would never say that word, this somebody can strip you of your dignity. I promised him and he said don't perpetuate that myth. But it is a myth. It really is a myth. And I think the Ubuntu concept also is, you know, I am a person through another person. That's how I become who I am, is through my relationships and my connections with others.

 

Donna Hicks  17:37

I just, that's those two things I think helped me understand that. Really, dignity is about connection, I talk about three connections. It's about connection to your own dignity, because that's fundamental. Thank you, Archbishop for telling me that the connection to other people's dignity having a relationship that's based on that mutual, you know, you like the word mutuality, the mutual recognition of each other's dignity, and humanity. And then the third connection is about a connection to something greater than ourselves bigger than ourselves beyond ourselves. And so that we don't all get into this little narcissistic tendency, thinking that we're the center of the universe. But you know, we are part of the universe, but we're not the center of that we humans, there is a big beautiful universe out there. And for people who are religious, you know, that connection to their creator is absolutely fundamental. And, you know, when I teach these classes on dignity, the students always say about this third connection that they want, purpose and meaning in their lives. That's the way they think about that third connection. It's not just about making enough money to buy a house or a car or go away on these fancy big, it's about doing something that contributes to the greater good. And that third connection is, I think all of us in education are doing that to we're trying to contribute to the greater good by, by addressing that ignorance for one. So three C's, connection, connection and connection. That's what dignity consciousness is.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  19:18

This conversation and Hicks scholarship on dignity, led me back to Nelson Mandela's framing of dignity, in two of his most famous speeches. In 1964, Nelson Mandela delivered a four hour speech at the Pretoria Supreme Court as he was convicted of sabotage. This speech names poverty, and an experience of a "lack" of human dignity as oppressive to Black South Africans. As Mandela was imprisoned on Robben Island, I sensed that this lack of human dignity became something that was invioble. Hicks writes, because Mandela, his sense of his own value and worth was so deeply ingrained. He never lost sight of the inherent value and work of others, no matter how badly he was treated. In his 1994 inauguration speech presented here, Mandela builds language around the inalienable right of human dignity, and closes with never again, to the suffering of indignities. I present you with two excerpts here,

 

Nelson Mandela  20:36

Without any fear in their hearts, assured of their inalienable right to human dignity, a rainbow nation, at peace with itself, and the world. We understand it still, that there is no easy road to freedom. We know it well, that none of us acting alone can achieve success. We must therefore act together as a united people, for national reconciliation, for nation building, for the birth of a new world, let there be justice for all. Let them be peace for all, Let there be work, bread, water, and salt for all. Let each know that for each the body, the mind and the soul had been freed to fulfill themselves. Never, never. And never again, shall it be that this beautiful land will again experience the oppression of one another, and suffer the indignity [applause].

 

Nelson Mandela  22:01

And suffer the indignity of being the skunk of the world. The sun shall never set on so glorious, a human achievement. Let freedom ring. God bless Africa, I thank you.

 

Donna Hicks  22:23

And I also believe that when those three connections are intact inside us that we know that we've embraced our own dignity, we've claimed it, we were taking care of it, we're protecting our own dignity, as well as the dignity of others, and then contributing to the greater good. That's what I think fulfillment is like, that's what the that's what it looks like. And you know, I have colleagues at Harvard who are doing work on human flourishing. And I was on a panel a few years ago with them and I say, hey, look, you're not gonna get anybody who's flourishing if they don't know they have dignity, you know, if they don't have these three connections, that's what human flourishing looks like. So it has in its, the African tradition is clearly embedded in the dignity model.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  23:16

Collective human flourishing is an expansion of self to the betweenness of relation. Hicks writes about the me, I we transformation as enlarging perspective taking, and an embrace of shared dignity that opens windows in conflict dialogues. Our me's are worldviews of self protection and limited vision. As individuals embrace connections to self, others and larger purpose, our visions of unconditional dignity come into focus. Hicks writes, "When we are firmly grounded in the eye, we can experience all dimensions of dignity, a connection to our own dignity to the dignity of others to the natural world, and to something greater than ourselves. Unlike the me, the goal of the I is self expansion and growth, not self preservation."

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  24:22

I layer this beside Dan Siegel's work on intraconnection and the enlargement of the me into the we or Mwe. Siegel writes that solo self construction is a fantasy of certainty, and a limiting story toward disconnection and delusion. Our visions of self and intraconnection, influence quote, constructions of categories concepts and symbols we use to name identify and shape how we belong. We might imagine a different story that lets go of isolated certainty and expands into planes of possibility. Siegel writes, If we explore our identity and expand our belonging and sense of self beyond the body, we differentiate and link our inner and relational selves into an integrative, intraconnected narrative of who we are. This integrative and intraconnected sense of being offers the emergence of kindness, compassion, and love. How might we embrace self expansion as peacebuilders and educators to build environments of mutual understanding, listening, and care.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  25:53

And if I, if I stay with your relationship with Archbishop Desmond Tutu, I went back and rewatched facing the truth. So um, and, and I have some things I want to reflect back to you. So I paid a lot of attention as I watched that, again, about the malleable nature of identity through the lens of the Me-I-We. And I want to reflect back to you that as I rewatched, the conflict dialogues I saw many of the participants begin with a me frame, using kind of dehumanized abstractions, stereotypes, passive voice a lot of times, and some protective posture as they began their dialogue. And I heard like language like objectives and actions that seemed to just happen without a human acting. And then I feel like I noticed a shift towards using you, or, or I and sometimes we, and an ability to imagine the self at another level of identity, maybe one that's more inclusive and connective. So first question, did I capture this shift correctly? And how have you experienced these identity shifts and conflict mediation and transformation?

 

Donna Hicks  27:06

Well, I think you did it beautifully. Thank you. That was lovely. The way you summarized that, I think that shift really reflects a lack of understanding of what it means to be a human being, frankly, because when you're in war, and when you're like, these guys were who were present at those encounters. You know, you're in self preservation mode, you're not in expansive mode, where you're thinking about, Oh, what impact do my actions have on others? No, you're thinking about annihilating the threat. That's what you're thinking about. So war in and of itself, I believe, is, is really a me driven, although some people say, well, there's the bigger picture to I'm fighting for my country, I'm fighting for this and that, but when that second connection is severed that the.. connection to others, then I think we can't operate from the "I", which is the part of ourselves that is able to reflect on our behavior and able to think about the impact of our actions on others, we just can't do it. The so you know, if I talk about the I in the Me, and part of you know, the I is that piece that I just said that can reflect on other people and how how they're receiving your, you know, interactions. But if we can, as peacebuilders, or as conflict resolution people, if we can create the conditions and create the space for that I to emerge, let's say, because we all have them, the I and the me, and let kind of tame that what I call the tyranny of the me, which is pummeled them, get them, you know, get the threat, then we can start in the South African tradition, by creating the we, here we are in this space now. And you know, I don't know if you remember the episode with Malcolm and Ronney the episode, which was, I think, the most powerful one in terms of that reconnection of the We, because they started out in their me's, and then they listened to each other and their I's started emerging. And then, you know, with a couple of interventions, they you know, when one one of them said to the other boy, if I had grown up in that circumstance, I probably would have done the same thing. There was that opportunity for the "we" to emerge, you know, and, and the two of them after, I mean, that was, I think, the greatest reconciliation session that we had of the 12 that we did. And after that these two went out into the, into the, into their communities and talked together about reconciliation, what it looked like. And this one, one guy was a policeman, a British police officer, and the other guy was an IRA volunteer. Can you imagine you can't get more polarized? So that process? I mean, I do see the dialogue process that you've just, you know, brought up with that we did with facing the truth. That process itself is one that I think and listening to you summarize it, I'm convinced now that listening to what your summary was, that that is the process that we have to go through from that, from the me to the I to the We.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  30:43

Yeah, I think it was actually that interaction that inspired me the most. And I. The other thing that I saw, too, I was also watching their bodies to in the interaction, that and also when their body was maybe turned away with their conversant in turn more towards the Desmond Tutu, and it was more open. And that as, as they move into a sense of imagination of other perspectives, I saw the body kind of move in a little bit. I'm trying to describe it over audio, and it directed more towards.. it took up less space.

 

Donna Hicks  31:12

I think the other thing that happened now that I'm reflecting on it is that created a sense of safety for them too, it felt safer to lean in, you know, it felt safer to get curious, like, whoa, and it felt safer to imagine what it might be like to have a connection with that person. You know, instead of wanting to shoot one another or kill one another, whoa, here we are in this amazing environment where the BBC is filming everything we do. I mean, that that's the other thing that, that.. sometimes it felt so intimate that we should I thought, oh my gosh, we shouldn't even be here. This is so profound, a reconnection of the humanity that I just felt like we had to be really silent and just witness what was going we had to be witnesses not intervenors at that point, because they were doing a masterful job on their own.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  32:04

Our vulnerable smallness and a vast universe that lies beyond our comprehension is the center of awe experience. We can wonder at the stars, and we can wonder at the awe of moments of generosity, forgiveness, kindness, and moves to repair what seems irrepairable. Hicks writes that a hallmark of good leadership quote, "is the capacity to feel awe and wonder at something greater than oneself. Feeling reverence creates the sense of humility necessary to avoid the temptation to abuse one's power by harming, exploiting and disempowering others." In his book on the science of awe, Dacher Keltner writes of awe as a sense of vastness, or a revision of understandings that are deeply entwined with humility. In 2018, Keltner, joined a team of researchers to explore entanglements of awe and humility. Participants in five research studies completed Self and Peer reports, watched videos of galaxies, or ascended to the top of a bell tower for a breathtaking view. In these measures, researchers found significant entanglements of awe and humility. Researchers wrote that humility diminishes the centering of the self, quote, emphasizing the value and concerns of others, they write, "awe would appear to be one way to encourage this balance of self interest for the interests of the group. Humility offers unique and independent pathways to social cohesion."

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  34:02

In the facing the truth series, Desmond Tutu expressed delight and awe with the phrase, "thank you for being vulnerable." His expression of this phrase sounded like gratitude, layered with an awe infused witness of vulnerability as he accompanied participants in journeys of human reconciliation, and transformation.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  34:27

I think that one of Archbishop Tutu's superpowers is his playful, mischievous smile. And he would put that smile together with thank you for being vulnerable. And, and he would remark about kind of like a sense of awe watching people being vulnerable with each other. And so I guess the spirit of my question is going to be about vulnerability, humility and awe and reverence. Yeah. And I think I listened to you in one podcast interview. You named that. You you may have wished that You've included humility, more central in the dignity model. And yet in the book, I kind of hear humility as being embedded within everything...  especially when you're talking about reverence. Yes. So my question is this, is there an interplay between vulnerability, humility and reverence, in belonging and dignity? And if so, what inspires you about the interplay in dignity conversations?

 

Donna Hicks  35:29

Well, I think, you know, vulnerability gets a bad rap most of the time, because typically, when we think of the word vulnerability, people often equate it with weakness, weakness, that, you know, I'm not going to be that vulnerable, this person is going to come back at man, you know, I have to defend myself, I have to. So vulnerability, I think, again, is has had a bad rap. Because I think vulnerability is where the truth resides. If you want to find truth, you're not going to get there, by being defensive by pretending something didn't happen by trying to save face by trying to, you know, take the bait, you're not going to get there, that way, you're going to get there by being quiet, being reflective, and suppressing that other part that wants to, not be vulnerable, you know. And in order to do that, that takes tremendous strength to stop and reflect and like, get into your "I" mode in the "i" part of you where you realize, okay, this is, you know, this is bigger than just me and I am I'm reflecting here, what are the consequences of my actions? What have I done here? And to be able to say, to the person you've harmed? Yes, I did, you know, I'm sorry, I really did. harm you by my actions. And take responsibility for it. You have to overcome so much internal self preservation, you know, that "Me's" are automatic responses that are so strong, they're survival mechanisms. But boy doing that can bring out a sense of, yeah, this isn't just about me. And this is where the humility comes in. I think this is, you know, you put yourself in that context of the relationship, not of you, the person but of the relationship. And what have I done, you know, what have I done here, and take a few deep breaths. And these neuroscientists that I've interviewed, they've said, you know, if you want to try to push the pause button on those automatic responses, where you're trying to defend yourself and all of that, just take 10 deep breaths, not count to 10. But you know, you're when you breathe, your vagus nerve connects your head, and you know this, yeah. And so. But it takes a tremendous sort of impact of humility that you realize, Oh, this isn't just about me. And you begin to see that how the outlines of the interaction expand. And includes the other person that takes humility that take to admit okay, I was wrong, I messed up, I did this. And it's also vulnerability, but to me, that is strength, that includes a spiritual strength, to be able to be that vulnerable. And that's where the reverence comes in, you know, having reverence for what we're capable of as human beings if we so choose, but we do have to choose.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  38:53

Hicks tells a story of the intersections of vulnerability, awe, playful joy and humility. Quote, at the end of a particularly hard day of filming, the Archbishop wrapped up the encounter by telling the two participants that he was deeply humbled by them. His closing words to them were, "thank you for being vulnerable." I pondered his ability to preside over such a difficult session, and to wrap it up so that the two participants walked out feeling enlarged in spirit. I asked, "Archbishop, how do you do that? It was such a powerful ending. You obviously hadn't rehearsed it. So where does it come from?" He giggled and pointed to a light in the ceiling. "What?" I asked, "I'm like a light bulb. When I'm plugged into the source, I shine."

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  39:49

I get to reflect back to you now, which is good about about so you know, I had read your leadership book And in the height of COVID, I was suddenly thrust into being a Dean of School of Arts and Humanities. And as I entered the pandemic context of like constant stress and ongoing decisions, I felt like I held your book almost almost as if it was a life preserver in that moment. Because COVID was a time when many citizens, especially teachers, experienced layers and layers of what they might call dignity violations. So, in COVID, I noticed that individuals experienced dignity violations in the ability to choose their own health and wellness, to have others value your care as expressed in decisions about masking or other decisions they might make. To center the voices of students, to be respected for professional expertise, I think, many ways teachers felt that other people were making all decisions for them. And no one was actually walking into the classroom and saying, how, how can we care for you? And so I just want to reflect back to you first, that, you know, as I moved into being a leader, holding that dignity frame in the midst of that helped me so much... to see everything through that lens. And so I just, I wondered how you experienced COVID. And what you noticed from that dignity lens about kind of the, the collective traumas we went through in that time.

 

Donna Hicks  39:49

Oh, those were hard times. And let's pray they're behind us. Yeah. Well, of course, you know, the whole dignity model is based on connection, connection, connection and connection to other people to the end, I found that it was very hard to maintain that connection with, on a zoom call, or teaching, you know, by zoom, I mean, I was grateful that we had it that we could stay at least minimally connected. But there there was something. I mean, I love being face to face with people. And I love speaking to an audience and I love teaching. And I just find that, you know, those mirror neurons we have in our brain that helps us feel the empathy for other people and feel what other people are feeling and isn't just, you know, any feeling that it was hard to do that over zoom, I had to kind of use my cognitive knowledge rather than my emotional connection with people to get us through. And students were so grateful to at least be able to have this kind of connection, even though it wasn't the kind that they're used to. And were yearning for at that time, because they were, so many of them were just stuck in their rooms and you know, their dorms and didn't have, you know, didn't feel safe to get out of there. And so lots of people were suffering from isolation. So zoom was better than nothing. Let's put it that way. But I'll never forget the first class I taught after, I think it was in 2021, maybe the fall of 2021. Was it? Does that make sense? Was it 21? We probably we went back into the classroom. There was joy, absolute joy among the students and just being physically present. And there is some energetic exchange that we engage in. And that energetic exchange is I think, the stuff of joy. You know, when art and love I mean, I think I think dignity connections when you have that connection with somebody else, you know, if you read that last chapter in my book on leadership, in where Barbara Fredrickson says, we have to do a retake of what we think love is, and we got to figure out what love 2.0 looks like. And it's really just about having these connections with each other. And it doesn't, it's certainly not romantic love or intimate love, it's love of connection and love of being together. And what that gives us and you know, one thing about COVID And I'm just thinking this right now, as bad as it was, I think it did teach us that lesson of how important the human connection is and how important relationships are. You know, the other thing Tutu taught me was that. He said, you know, Donna, it's our duty to be joyful. It's our duty as human beings to be joyful, because that's what takes us to whole new levels of understanding and of consciousness and, and boy, that was a that was a powerful message. It's our duty to be joyful.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  44:45

In the book of joy. The Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu engage in a dialogue, noting that "from this weakness and fragility, not despite it, we discover the possibility of pure joy." With joy, quote, "perhaps we are just more alive. Yet as we discover more joy, we can face suffering in a way that enables rather than embitters. We have hardship without becoming hard. We have heartbreak without being broken." Donna and I shifted our conversation, to continuous tensions between the universal and contextual. I asked how the field of peacebuilding might hold paradoxes of uniquely situational and locally led contexts, alongside universals of dignity, and belonging,

 

Donna Hicks  45:42

we have to understand that piece, that diversity piece that is part of the process of transformation. But it's not the last step, there's one more step that we have to take. And that is recognizing what brings us all together again. And that unity that we need in order to make it in this world and survive as a human species, I think this is about the species level, frankly, if we're going to survive as a species, we have to get take that last step, and figure out ways to unify our understanding of what it means to be a human being. And I believe that dignity can take us there, because it we all, I mean, you wouldn't believe the story that I use the word yearning to describe the universality that we all yearn to be treated with dignity. Maybe music can can bring that yearning out, I think it can actually. But that's really what.. it's a feeling it's not, it's not, and it's a spiritually, deeply spiritual yearning, to be seen, to be heard, to be recognized to be treated fairly to be, you know, apologized to if someone mistreat us those, that's what we all want from relationships. And I think a knowledge of dignity can take us there, it doesn't negate anything that came before. You know, the idea that this is contextual, that this is about the culture. This is, yeah, that's a piece of it. That's critically important for our analysis. I mean, not only analysis sounds too analytical, but I really want to say that I think is nothing less than the survival of our species is at stake here, until we can get to that unified state where we recognize each other's humanity and recognize that, you know, at the end of the day, we all want the same thing.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  47:40

The language of species has been thinking too, so many peacebuilders now are also opening up their frames to ecological frameworks in a time of climate change. And do you see people doing the dignity work that moves beyond the human species?

 

Donna Hicks  47:54

Oh, for sure. I mean, I talk about that in my, in my book, the first book, especially but yeah, you know, there's the dignity of the planet as well. You know, I'm like, in the introduction of my first book, I said, peace is the internal state of calm that we reach when we recognize the value and vulnerability of all living things, the planet's a living thing, you know, the universe is a living thing. And so, talk about expansion of our consciousness, if we really did recognize that, you know, in harming our planet, we're harming ourselves, and our entire species and other species have been wiped out because they've, you know, that's happened. And so yeah, I think the evolutionary biology is also helping with these insights to about the human species and what we're up against. And I think expanding it out to the environment and to nature and to this, the planet, writ large. We, we it's all part of us. We're all this is like the Buddhist sense of being interconnected here. We can't escape it. And we may think we can, we may think we can prioritize the human experience over all the rest. While there are consequences and we're seeing them front and center. I mean, this year alone, all the things that have happened to our climate, with climate change,

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  49:22

Hicks writes, "The idea of dignity doesn't stop with human beings. The indignities that we perpetrate on other species and on the environment deserve just as much attention. Thinking about how we treat all aspects of life on the planet. And the planet itself, in terms of dignity is a way to connect ourselves emotionally to the world around us. As we center dignity, we gain a different view of climate change, and other human actions that affect our planet. Our feelings about fairness will expand to include the natural world. And we won't need to be reminded that all living things, not just humanity are invaluable, priceless, and irreplaceable."

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  50:17

In the next episode, we will look at Mica Estrada's research on the influence of human self efficacy, identity and values, on issues of climate change and ecological care.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  50:30

That's all my plan questions. And my last question I always close with, you know, if there's anything that I haven't asked you that you wish I would ask you if, especially if we think about the conversation between belonging and dignity? Is there anything I haven't asked you?

 

Donna Hicks  50:44

Well, I think dignity is the is the road to belonging. I mean, if you want to create a roadmap to, to belonging, then we have to learn about what it means and what it looks like to treat each other that way we have to. The other thing that I want to just comment on right here at the end is that just remembering what Tutu said, because there are times that even still, that I have to remind myself that I have dignity when I can feel that suction, that gravitational pull to make me feel less than or feel like I don't belong, or that I've done something stupid or wrong, that gravitational pull to thinking you lost your dignity is so strong and powerful, that we just need to have a mechanism. Maybe it's just a quiet reflection, maybe it's talking to other people, whatever it is, to get us back on target. Because that's when we do crazy things, either to ourselves or others when we disconnect from our dignity. It's a it's a task for all of us, all of us. And because I don't think we could do the other two connections without that first connection to our own dignity.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  50:48

Donna Hicks writes, "When we extend dignity to others, we open ourselves to the possibility of becoming more caring, more loving, more compassionate, in a word, more human. I think I finally understand what Archbishop Tutu means by Ubuntu. He believes my humanity is caught up, bound up inextricably with yours, we can only be human together." In the next episode, we center the research of Dr. Mica Estrada, who has extended Hicks work on dignity into dialogues of belonging. To look at how micro and macro affirmations or kindness, build expansive spaces of diverse identities, we're all might experience affirmations and belonging.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  52:57

My deepest gratitude to Dr. Donna Hicks for her presence and contributions to enlarged conversations of belonging. Dr. Hicks books on dignity are published by Yale University Press her 2021 10th Anniversary Edition, "Dignity, It's essential role in resolving conflict" is a must read on elements and constructions of dignity. Her 2018 book "leading with dignity, how to create a culture that brings out the best in people" is an essential book for fostering practices of leadership that center the flourishing of dignity. Other sources cited in this podcast are listed on our webpage.

 

Kevin Shorner-Johnson  53:39

This is the music and peacebuilding podcast hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson. At Elizabethtown college we host a master of music education with an emphasis in peacebuilding. Thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care. Join us at music peace building.com